Wikinews:Requests for permissions/Administrator/Leaderboard

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There's no clear need, here, for sysop at this time based on the discussion. Spam cannot be released anywhere important. When admins come online, they can readily check RecentChanges; tagging it just serves to artificially inflate an edit count. There are, however, many things a new admin would be very helpful for. I hope to see you writing content, learning the project ropes, and hopefully sometime in the future joining the admin team to help with such things are archive curation. The idea of granting admin powers on the basis they only be used strictly for one specific task isn't a bad idea, per se; it's just that the project has decided not to go for it. (I recall this being attempted once before with disastrous results for the review flag.) Additionally, it's noted by yourself that you're keen to explore alternatives to your assisting with your own pet corner of site maintenance (I am aware tone can be hard to read online; I do not mean that disparagingly) and there's some discussion to the effect that chewing over the possibility of new content filters seems a good way forwards. BRS ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 04:36, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Leaderboard (talk · contribs) - sysop

A bit of a reluctant request, I would appreciate if I could receive sysop here.

The main point to note against me is that I don't have much news experience (hence the reluctance) - I've never written an article (and hence don't have reviewer). However, the main reason I'm requesting adminship is the high level of spam pages that I see everyday which I can't remove (which I refer to as "classic spam" due to their frequency). Yes, those aren't published. But they still shouldn't be here.

Hence, if I were to get adminship here, I do not plan to use it for anything that's news-related, including reviewing articles (if that's enabled for sysops). I'm only requesting it to combat spam (namely deleting and blocking). I can be 'sanctioned' to do only that.

For a quantification of how many pages I catch every day, take a look at my edit count. Nearly 90% of edits I make involve tagging speedy-deleted articles, and I have >200 edits. Leaderboard (talk) 13:37, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Questions and comments

Hmmmmm, you post an interesting idea. Hmmmm......... Let me/us ruminate about it for a bit....? --Bddpaux (talk) 15:13, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment A concern. How we interact with newcomers is, inevitably, key to recruitment, which we're pretty much always intensively focused on. Being just a bit heavy-handed in one's treatment of newcomers can have a huge impact on the future of the project, and while I'd certainly agree there's a great deal of classic spam, it's also vitally important to sift out the cases to handle more softly. In effect, handling those borderline cases can ease over into a grey area nearing reviewer territory. --Pi zero (talk) 16:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC) --Gryllida (chat) 23:56, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I need to remark that I would be personally glad to support this request because I am tired of the spam. I presume that when asked about news writing you can direct people to the water cooler or the articles talk page as appropriate. Do you have evidence to support this presumption? Have you been approached about content work here or at Wikibooks or elsewhere before? How did you handle the requests? --Gryllida (chat) 23:56, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Anything from mw:Manual:Combating spam or similar that you recommend to decrease manual work? --Gryllida (chat) 23:56, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How would you semi-automate the deletion of spam? --Gryllida (chat) 23:56, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And what is the most important barrier to your participation in "direct" (writing of new content) content work on-wiki? Do you not have a time slot large enough to make a bigger edit? Or there is something else stopping you? (This is probably not directly related to the request, however, I think it would be an interesting point to raise, even if tangentially.) --Gryllida (chat) 23:56, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Gryllida: Wikibooks' equivalent is Using Wikibooks, which is where I would direct users to (or the Reading Room) if asked about content work there.

My recommendation is to implement proper abuse filters - sorely lacking at Wikinews. I asked Pi zero about this before, but he didn't seem interested at it because he felt that it could drive new users away. In contrast, Wikibooks' abuse filters do their job very well and Wikinews' "classic spam" occurs far less frequently. I do plan to start importing some abuse filters to see if they could decrease manual work (obviously testing them before deployment). In fact, it took a user this to bypass the filter: 🅱🅸🅽...

As for the lack of "direct" content work, I'm currently not interested in writing news articles for now, though I occasionally make minor edits. Leaderboard (talk) 09:20, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Leaderboard. Is there a link to this past discussion of abuse filters? --Gryllida (chat) 10:53, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Gryllida: It was over IRC, so unfortunately I don't have a link. Leaderboard (talk) 12:19, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Although we do have to be very careful not to impose filters that interfere with recruitment —and in that regard any damage done is permanent (there's no second chance to make a first impression), so it's a very big deal— I did not mean to give the impression I was rejecting the importation of some of those filters from Wikibooks. I think my point was that before importing any given filter I would want to vet it carefully to be confident it wasn't going to do that sort of harm; so it might or might not get rejected upon vetting. This goes to the concern I was expressing earlier about the need to be selectively gentle when dealing with possible spam. --Pi zero (talk) 13:40, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have experience modifying, creating, or importing the filters, demonstrated at another wiki? --Gryllida (chat) 23:51, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Beyond very minor modifications at Wikibooks (JackPotte, not I, made the filters), no. While an admin imported some of them to Wikiquote, it did cause some adverse effects, with a significantly higher rate of false-positives than what I saw at Wikibooks. Leaderboard (talk) 08:00, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ta. I'm not competent enough to supervise this hard work. I reckon that it needs to be done though. Let's see what others are willing to do. --Gryllida (chat) 00:40, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of things we can observe:

There is a problem of spam. And that is nothing new, which I have been observing from Nay 1, 2015--the day I started monitoring Wikinews' RC. Also, this problem is not unique to this project.
It would be really helpful if there was someone who could promptly prevent things from being spoiled by a vandal. I would have to wait half a day for an admin to wake up, or search for other on random IRC channels, or even tweet to other admin hoping that they would clean up the mess which they had manifested during their RfP.

And sometimes, if the user has some rights elsewhere on other project, that can be counted in their benefit. However, there are lots of users who would occasionally come by, tag articles for deletion. Yes, there is a need to have a responsive, attentive admin; but that does not mean anyone who has tagged articles for deletion will pass the cut. I also wonder why Bddpaux (t · c · b) finds this an interesting idea, as this "idea" has been used so many times (on various wikiprojects). An admin needs to do more than just deleting the "spam". There are times when it is tricky to strike the balance, to make understand the person how things should be; to look for if something is actually an article and if it appeared as spam because the user lacks experience on this project. This is just a fraction of what one needs to master for deleting the pages. There is a thing about page protection, archiving, protecting main space redirects, modifying and listening to {{editprotected}} requests. One needs to know the project in-and-out to be able to use admin rights in their entirety. Otherwise, anyone who marks articles for deletion could be granted the rights. There are so many tasks pending since late 2015-early 2016, which were not taken care of till earlier of this year. There are editors with admin rights who do not process editprotected requests because they are not confident (problem is not that they are unaware of, it is just that they have used this excuse so many times!)

Oh, well, I would not emphasise on those stupid filters and triggers who has no idea about being a human, who would trigger at the wrong time, relegating me and taking away my privs. If those things worked, we would have bots for adminship who could delete spam. I can not say about other projects, however on a news related wiki, a human interaction is required more than a chunk of code handling things.

Again, an admin who is restricting themselves from performing many admin-related tasks will hardly make a difference. If there is more spam, current admins would take more time, but would eventually remove it. It would be really helpful if someone who had a skillset more than that. For which they need to know the project in-and-out.
•–• 05:30, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Your second point is something which I've experienced many times (and for some reason Wikinews isn't GS-enabled, which prevents those users from helping either). While the problem of spam does exist in other projects as well, Wikibooks receives less spam (especially "classic spam") than Wikinews does. Leaderboard (talk) 08:00, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As best I recall (though I'd feel the need, very reluctantly, to do some intensive wiki-archaeology if the subject were seriously raised), we didn't want global sysops here brodly becuase of the differentness of Wikinews culture and the unintended damage that someone with admin privs could do here. --Pi zero (talk) 13:12, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I really can't see what more Leaderboard can offer, which anyone who combats cross-wiki vandal can't. Maybe they should familiarise themselves with the project; and the best way is to by participating in content writing, which is the key to next steps for various inner thing to be known about the project.
•–• 11:20, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If spam was well managed here, then I probably wouldn't be driven enough to request adminship. There aren't many who "combats cross-wiki vandal" here. Also, it wouldn't be incorrect to state that my experience in handling spam here would, in a sense, help in getting at least the minimum "inner thing" that I should know (after all, I do often read content here).

In all fairness, you really did not spend much time to know how many people come by, randomly, and take files for deletion. Locally, Green Giant and even I had informed admins on and off-wiki. No, just deleting spam will not give the overall inner picture nor will just "reading" provide the entire overview, to be honest. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Acagastya (talk • contribs) 12:04, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Btw, Green Giant appears to have vanished from the sisterhood last month, with their last multiple-edits-per-day on September 6, one edit September 12 and one on September 21, and nothing since.) --Pi zero (talk) 13:37, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
I think they mentioned they would be going off-wiki. Not sure when their break ends. However, I don't think it is relevant here. Nor does that undo all the deletions they tagged or the FTC requests.
•–• 15:10, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Quite right, it's an aside, hence my parentheses. Don't think I'd heard about a break; good to know.) --Pi zero (talk) 17:03, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

CommentTell you what: let's take a deep breath here. Are you willing to HELP this project? Are you willing to help this project be better at doing what it does? Then, if so:how about you come here and do some very simple copy editing of articles that are in the development phase? That's our VERY SIMPLE WAY to get started around here. Drop in a comma, take out a semi colon......that type of stuff. 'I want to help the way I want to help.' doesn't work very well around her until you've earned your place amongst the tribe. I'm not being a jerk, I promise!! The newbie-est user in the whole wide world is VERY WELCOME to come here and do day-to-day stuff like that! How about you start 'washing dishes' (so-to-speak)....and we'll see where things go from there? --Bddpaux (talk) 16:23, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, I'm willing to help this project, otherwise I wouldn't bother to tag pages in the first place. From the comments I've gathered it seems that the concern is my lack of "direct" experience (as expected). That being said, it should be noted that I'm not necessarily looking for my being a sysop as the only solution; if someone else can do the job better, so be it. Also, I suggested that you allow GS to delete this so that I can bug them instead of tagging classic spam over and over again. Or just implement filters which can catch spam like we do at Wikibooks. Or create a group that allows me to delete pages and nothing else. I reluctantly simply applied for adminship because there was no other way (and tagging pages isn't enough, contrary to Pi zero's comment that I'm helpful enough with that).

and about @Bddpaux:'s suggestion to contribute directly? Well, Wikinews is surely interesting. But I don't have the time to 'throw' myself into the project. While I regularly read the articles and policies around here (and occasionally make the odd fix or two), I just can't commit to writing news at this time. And even if my adminship request gets thrown out, I don't intend to "run away hurt and mad" at this time; I'm used to it. Leaderboard (talk) 18:42, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Votes

Oppose Truthfully, I don't feel it'd be wise to give someone the admin bit over spam issues without a strong sense of the pulse of the project. They're helpful with their current status. --Pi zero (talk) 19:42, 20 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose ....for the moment. (See my above comment). If XE doesn't run away hurt and mad, then maybe XE is willing to help this project. I like to say, 'In church, there's never any shortage of people who're called to beat their bongos for Jesus! But then, the floor buffer appears, and people start vanishing at high rates.'--Bddpaux (talk) 16:26, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I guess the comments above clearly highlighted that adminship for the basic level of "aye mate, will clean up the spam for ye", here is the third "no". Also, a big no for GS (global sysop) for those who wondered about it, like I had to.
•–• 22:40, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
not ready per above I guess...
But perhaps propose a specific set of filters or a filter choice strategy on the forum and someone would consider importing them for you? I would be glad to involve team work if it helps this situation to move. --Gryllida (chat) 22:51, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.