Talk:"Jezebel of Jazz" Anita O'Day dies at age 87

Latest comment: 17 years ago by Brianmc in topic Subject/Verb - tense & agreement

I must protest.

Gramatically, use of the word 'dies' in reference to a persons death is neither proper style nor grammar. As a verb, it implies that death is now ongoing. That is, one is dying. An adverb is not appropriate in the head. One doe not "dies". The word 'dies' is future perfect. Miss O'Day is dead. Having suffered death, she is not living. An adjective is proper use. The article 'is' is understood in that sense. Therefore, "...Anita O'Day "dead" is proper gramatically and stylistically.

Unless there are compelling reasons why it should not be so, I intend upon returning the article to it's previous headline.

Now... if you can help me figure out how to write the code to link to her promo pic on Wikipedia, that'd be the cat's meow!

Thanks! Mink Butler Davenport 22:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please stop! See Wikinews:Style_guide#Verb_tenseNeebs 23:12, 24 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have used a third title as opposed to the two it kept bouncing between. Please watch out for redirects. --Brian McNeil / talk 23:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Locked from moves edit

Please refrain from moving until we settle on a title. In the meantime I have locked this article from pagemoves. MESSEDROCKER 23:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks much. Neebs 23:23, 24 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

==Grammar Articles== edit

The statement of age in the headline is understood (implied) that 'she was aged' - therefore to write it or say it is unnecessary. When one is 87, one is aged 87, the understood articles being "was aged".

Further, when one dies, one is dead. The present tense of 'death' is 'dead'. To proclaim that one 'dies' is neither corect gramatically nor stylistically. Of course, one does die, but to write or say 'such-and-such dies' is not gramatically correct. The sense of tense, is the predicating issue. The word 'dies' is future perfect, which is to say that it occurs or is currently ongoing. Death is a state from which one cannot return, i.e., it is permanent. One is dead. So, the original headline ""Jezebel of Jazz," Anita O'Day dead at 87" is accurate, in proper newswriting style, and uses proper grammar. (I write having well over two decades of professional writing experience.)

The current headline ""Jezebel of Jazz" Anita O'Day dies aged 87" has conflicting tense. The verb 'dies' and the the adverb 'aged' are not in the same tense.

The correct form of the words would be (if used) 'dies' and 'age'. Alternately, if ""Jezebel of Jazz," Anita O'Day dead aged 87 would also be correct.

Notice that 'dead' is used, and the proper form of age is 'aged'.

Further, the understood articles of language 'is,' 'was,' and 'will be,' (remember conjugating verbs from grammar school?) may be understood in the sense of omission. For example, one is, or can be dying. And to write XxX dies indicates that dying is a present state which has yet to be fulfilled. The statement using the word 'death' indicates that death has occurred. To write XxX is dead at 123, is understood that the terminus of life was at 123, not will be.

However, the most concise, grammatically correct headline is ""Jezebel of Jazz" Anita O'Day dead at 87". Thanks! Mink Butler Davenport 23:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please, listen my friend. I above posted to see the style guide at verb tense. This is what it says:

Articles should be written in the past tense or the present perfect. Headlines should be written in the present tense. Timelines also are written in the present tense.

Please, take into this and stop this pagemove war. The present tense of die is dies. Look at the other pages where the article is about someone dying, they always use die. I agree on aged should be taken and replaced with at age, however. Neebs 02:07, 25 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Subject/Verb - tense & agreement edit

The present perfect tense (an event which happened or never happened before now {the present time} at a point in the past, but is being viewed from the present) is the tense which should be used in the headline.

The present perfect of 'die' (base form) is 'died,' (past participle) NOT 'dies' (third person singular), and when used to modify a singular subject, e.g. he, she, the girl/boy, etc., it should be XxX has died.

The present perfect continuous tense indicates the duration of an event which started in the past and is still continuing in the present.

The word 'dead' is an adjective. Rules concerning adjectives state that they are hierarchically categorized into 1) opinion, 2) size, 3) age, 4) shape, 5) color, 6) origin and 7) material. The hierarchy works only when the adjectives are used in aposition (position before the noun being modified).

There is an understood article, i.e. not specifically written/mentioned, in the original headline. That article is 'is'.

'dead' is Plural Countable Noun (Human). 'death' is a Singular Countable Noun. As a singular noun, 'death' can take a singular form of verbs, and can be an uncountable noun.

In the most fundamental sense, sentences must contain a subject and a verb. Predicate nominatives (noun or pronoun following a linking verb and referring to the person or thing as the subject of the verb) follow the verb. Thus, "Jezebel of Jazz," Anita O'Day dead at 87" is proper grammatically.

However, may I also share that a headline that states "Jezebel of Jazz," Anita O'Day dead at 87" would also be appropriate, because 'dead' is an adjective, and modifies the understood verb 'is'. In that case, the use of 'is' indicates the present third person singular.

Yet, in some regard, I can - with respect toward collaboration, improvement and compromise - agree to change the headline to "Jezebel of Jazz," Anita O'Day has died at 87". Then, of course, if she has died, she is dead. Mink Butler Davenport 17:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As this Google search shows, "dies aged x" is a commonly used news headline. --Brian McNeil / talk 19:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"dead at" is more popular though. --Brian McNeil / talk 19:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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